Note: Rina Amiri is the U.S. Special Envoy for Afghan Women, Girls, and Human Rights. She was present during the U.S. negotiations with Taliban representatives in Doha, which focused on the situation in Afghanistan. In a controversial tweet, she stated that, at the insistence of some Afghan women and activists, talks had taken place with the Taliban in Doha. Rina Amiri, in this interview with the Hasht-e Subh Daily, discussed the U.S. negotiations with the Taliban regarding women’s rights, the objectives of the U.S. Special Envoy for Afghan Women, Girls, and Human Rights, her assessments of the Taliban’s performance, and the group’s policies. She stated that while there is no guarantee of the Taliban’s commitment to human rights, pressure on this group will continue. According to Rina Amiri, dialogue is not the only option the United States considers for the Taliban, and the country has used restrictions and sanctions to hold the Taliban accountable. The Hasht-e Subh Daily invites you to read this interview.
8AM: You participated in the high-level week at the Human Rights Council and UNGA. What can you tell us about these events and how the issue of human rights in Afghanistan, particularly the situation of Afghan women, was addressed?
Rina Amiri: I was pleased to see that there was a great deal of focus on Afghanistan, including two high-level enhanced dialogues, led respectively by the Special Rapporteur for Afghanistan and High Commissioner Turk during the high-level week at the UN Human Rights Council. There were also several side events featuring Afghan human rights activists. At the UN General Assembly High-Level week, there were at least three high-level events, including a ministerial focused on the situation of Afghan women. These events signify that the international community continues to see Afghanistan, particularly the situation of Afghan women and girls a high priority. In these gatherings, the speakers underscored the centrality of women’s rights to a stable and secure Afghanistan and underscored that there will be no progress in normalization with the Taliban until there is respect for the rights of the Afghan population, particularly a reversal of policies that deny women and girls access to education, work, and participation in public life.
8AM: You are probably aware of the criticism wave of Afghan women activists on you regarding your recent statement. You said that you met with the Taliban officials after consulting with Afghan women, something that was refused by most of the Afghan activists. Can you name a few women whom you have consulted with before meeting with the Taliban?
Rina Amiri: I know that many Afghan women are opposed to the international community engaging the Taliban. Many of them have made this case to me. I think it is a valid position and it is the stance that I took for one year. However, there are others, both inside and outside the country who believe engagement – meaning talking to the Taliban – remains a necessary element of pushing for accountability and change. Let me be clear, not a single one of these women is in favor of legitimizing or normalizing relations with the Taliban. They do not support the Taliban’s extreme policies. Nor do I. But many of these women are taking extraordinary risks, including engaging local Taliban officials themselves as they struggle to carve out space to work, feed their families, and advocate for their daughters to return to school. Some of these women and men have called on me to use my position to do the same. Aside from the conversations I’ve had, UN reports also attest to the fact that there are groups of Afghan women who want the international community to meet with the Taliban to apply pressure. You have asked me to provide the names of those who insisted I engage. I will not because I do not want to put these individuals in a vulnerable position. There have been several incidents of Afghans being publicly attacked, particularly on social media, for suggesting that engaging with the Taliban should be an option. As we push the Taliban for inclusivity and democratic dialogue, we have to practice what we preach. There must be space for all – those who oppose or support engagement – to be heard. In a context in which there are limited options and the Taliban is engaging in human rights abuses and denying half of the population the exercise of their rights, both positions are valid.
Ultimately, I chose to meet with the Taliban because there are three points of consensus among many vital members of the international community: 1) There is no appetite for a return to civil war; 2) there is no support for normalizing relations with the Taliban; and 3) there is a need for pragmatic engagement to try to press the Taliban on several issues to improve the situation in Afghanistan. Once the decision was made to engage with the Taliban, the question for me was whether I would be the only member of the U.S. leadership in Afghanistan not to engage or if I would go and make it clear to the Taliban that human rights, particularly the devastating situation of women and girls, is a top priority for the United States. I chose to attend the talks, and I spent two days in Doha telling the Taliban that, regardless of progress in other areas, they will not achieve their objectives in normalizing relations with the United States if they do not respect the rights of Afghans, particularly by reversing the extreme decrees targeting women and girls. I worked with my colleagues to ensure that this was integrated throughout every session. I do not regret that decision. While I fully understand the skepticism about engaging the Taliban, I am prepared to try this approach for now to see if it can help move the needle and improve the situation for Afghans. However, I also believe that engaging the Taliban is not enough. I will continue my efforts toward supporting a robust process of engaging with Afghan women and civil society alongside meeting the Taliban. My office is diligently working on such efforts.
8AM: There were pictures of you wearing a hijab and a mask in the meeting with the Taliban. Why did you choose to dress this way?
Rina Amiri: To be clear, I did not wear a veil or hijab at this meeting. Also, any pictures that you saw of this meeting are a misrepresentation because there were no photos taken at this meeting. I wore a veil when I first met with the Taliban in Oslo in January 2022.
8AM: You are representing US interests in talks with the Taliban. However, many Afghan women lean on you to put pressure on the Taliban for their bans on women. Do you think you can make both Afghan women and the US government satisfied at the same time?
Rina Amiri: My mandate is to ensure that human rights, including the situation of Afghan women and girls, are meaningfully prioritized and integrated throughout U.S. policy, including in engagements with the Taliban and counterparts in the international community. That is the U.S. interest I represent, and I believe it is aligned with demands that I press the Taliban to respect the demands of the Afghan people. I bring the recommendations that I hear from Afghan women inside and outside of Afghanistan into every discussion, especially those with the Taliban.
8AM: Why did interaction with the Taliban suddenly become the US’s only option to protect human and women’s rights in Afghanistan? Has the United States run out of options to put pressure on the Taliban?
Rina Amiri: Engagement with the Taliban is one of many actions the U.S. government is taking to ensure that human rights are respected in Afghanistan. The United States, with the international community, has deployed several measures and restrictions – including issuing visa restrictions and maintaining sanctions and the UN’s travel ban – as a means of trying to hold the Taliban accountable.
8AM: What are the guarantees that your negotiations with the Taliban will commit to human and women’s rights in Afghanistan? Why are you seeking another commitment from the Taliban while they are already ignoring their promises to the US that were made on the Doha deal?
Rina Amiri: There are no guarantees. There is good reason to be cynical about the Taliban’s commitments, particularly concerning human rights and the situation of women and girls. But we must continue to press the Taliban to respect the rights of Afghans, including ending their extreme and systemic discrimination against women and girls, and use every tool at our disposal to improve the devastating situation faced by 40 million Afghans.
8AM: Considering your negotiations and the widespread dissatisfaction of Afghan society, what future do you foresee for human and women’s rights in this country?
Rina Amiri: The road ahead will continue to be challenging and while the role of the international community is important, the role of Afghans is paramount. Afghan men must continue standing with women and girls fighting to exercise their rights. More efforts need to be put in place to enable Afghans to be supportive of each other. Intolerance is only helpful to those who want to undermine human rights and women’s rights. It is not productive to label those who advocate for speaking with the Taliban as Taliban sympathizers or to dismiss those who oppose engagement. While some views may be different, we must remember there is a common cause among the majority of Afghans to demand respect for the rights of all Afghans.
8AM: In the last 2 years, there have been many human rights violations committed by the Taliban. International human rights bodies have reported frequently on Taliban atrocities. Are these reports enough to initiate global pressure on the Taliban?
Rina Amiri: There needs to be work on multiple fronts. We need media coverage to generate public awareness that contains targeted messaging to counter perceptions that this is about religion and culture. We also need documentation and evidence collection to ensure justice and accountability. The international community must speak in a united voice and work together to prioritize human rights in their engagements.
8AM: After becoming the special representative for Afghan women’s rights, what were your goals to change the department’s policies towards the Taliban?
Rina Amiri: I have prioritized efforts to support Afghan women and girls. I’ll begin by noting 3 of those, starting with establishing the U.S. Afghan Consultative Mechanism to ensure that Afghan voices are meaningfully included in U.S. and international policy. We are working on securing additional resources to meaningfully include an even broader range of voices inside and outside Afghanistan in this process.
In collaboration with a variety of State Department bureaus and offices, we have also established the Alliance for Afghan Women’s Economic Resilience (AWER), a public-private partnership that aims to support education, entrepreneurship, and workforce participation for Afghan women inside and outside Afghanistan. We are looking to make some announcements early next year regarding some partnerships to this end.
I also continue to work intensively with international counterparts, particularly Muslim-majority countries, in support of Afghan women and girls and I am particularly pleased that we have a growing number of Muslim-majority countries that are prepared to provide diplomatic and concrete support, including scholarships, for Afghan women and girls.
8AM: Do you think the future of relations between the US and the Taliban will soften once the Taliban soften their policies on women?
Rina Amiri: The Taliban have restricted Afghan women’s ability to exercise their human rights and fundamental freedoms over the last two years in what Special Rapporteur Richard Bennett has called “the worst situation in the world for women.” There will have to be considerable changes to the Taliban’s policies, especially concerning the rights of Afghans, including the rights of women and girls, for relations to improve in a significant way.
8AM: Do you see any significant future for keeping the investment of the United States on women’s rights in Afghanistan? Is there any chance of sustaining those huge investments?
Rina Amiri: The Taliban’s systemic discrimination against women and girls and oppression of the Afghan population is a critical human rights issue. It is also an economic, security, and stability issue, which is vital to the interests of not just the United States but every country that seeks a stable, sustainable, and secure Afghanistan. This is why women’s and human rights will continue to be a U.S. and international priority.
8AM: After your interactions with some of the Taliban officials, do you think there is a segregation between the “Good Taliban” and “Bad Taliban” in the current Taliban administration in Afghanistan?
Rina Amiri: I don’t believe that the categorization is that simple. The Taliban are an ideological movement, so while there may be differences it is not as dramatic as people hope. I believe, however, that there are Talibs who recognize that their current strategy of extreme repression, particularly against the women and girls of Afghanistan and other authoritative and exclusionary policies, will not lead them to achieve their goals. As I have said to the Taliban when I have met with them, every movement in Afghanistan in the last 45 years has attempted to govern through an exclusionary policy, and trampled on the rights of individuals, has lost the confidence of the people, which has led to their demise. The Taliban are no different and risk the same fate if they don’t change their policies.
8AM: And as a final question, how do you see the future of Afghanistan in the next 2 years in terms of women’s and girls’ rights?
Rina Amiri: If the Taliban pursue the same set of extreme policies, there will be more poverty, migration, and instability. But I have great faith in the Afghan people. It is not the first time in history that Afghan women and girls have faced a setback. They have overcome these obstacles and they will do so again. It may take more than 2 years, but I firmly believe that Afghanistan has come too far to be willing to accept the extreme situation that it faces now. It is our job to support the incredibly courageous Afghans in their demands for their rights to be respected.